Building Frameworks To Fix All The Things

January 16, 2020

We promised “A Day In The Life” episodes, but thought it was only fair to go through our days before we ask a bunch of other people to share theirs. Turns out, we spend a lot of our time building frameworks and helping newer devs.

Be sure to check out our new Slack community to meet others who are facing the same things you are and share your journeys!

• 00:00 Joshua

  Hey folks, welcome to Getting Apps Done. A mostly non technical podcast about building software. I'm your host Joshua.

• 00:11 Kel

  And I'm Kel.

• 00:12 Joshua

  And on the podcast, instead of talking about syntax and frameworks and other technical things related to developing software, we talk about more practical and less technical things. Now we've been on a bit of a holiday hiatus and we're back, which is great. It's been a little while. I think we're out of practice.

• 00:31 Kel

  Yeah, I think we are too, actually this could be an interesting episode. Just as a warning.

• 00:35 Joshua

  It could be. So we're going to make it interesting. Uh, what I think we're going to talk about today is actually what we have learned and what we hope we've shared with some people over the past year because while we started this out as a journey to basically just build some content to promote ourselves, to be completely honest, uh, we've actually, I think both of us would agree. We've learned a huge amount of about ourselves, about other people, about just humanity in general. And uh, I think it's good to reflect sometimes at new years. I am not a huge fan of resolutions or anything like that, but I do think it's good to reflect and look back and decide what you're going to do going forward periodically and a new year is just as good a time as any other. So yeah, let's go for it.

• 01:20 Kel

  Absolutely. And just a my own way of doing that. I like to have like a nice set line somewhere. Doesn't matter what it is. Like it's you need to start something new. It's like, all right, that'll be next week or something like that. So yeah, you know, New Year's a nice line in the sand of all right, final recap then.

• 01:36 Joshua

  Yeah, absolutely. I, it doesn't matter what triggers it, it's just a good practice to be and I think we should probably do it several times a year. I tried to do it once a season, that means every few months I'm kind of going back through and refactoring. Developers love to refactor, don't we? And it's good to refactor yourself a little bit as well.

• 01:55 Kel

  Yeah I mean, looping back around to the topics we talk on feedback, fast feedback. Iteration is very common thing. So yeah, it's a good time for to talk about where we started and where we ended up I guess, too.

• 02:07 Joshua

  Yeah, so I actually end, that's a good point. Where we started was talking to businesses initially about how to build the software because we see a gap and as developers, everybody listening, I'm sure will see this gap as well. There's this huge gap between people who know how to develop software and people who don't. We've talked about this before for anybody who's not a developer, what we do is magic and trying to help them understand so that they know what the intricacies are and what the pitfalls are, what to expect as they go are all really important things. And actually we just recently had an episode specifically about exactly that. Communicating with people, setting expectations, educating them and helping them be in the same context as you. And that's what we actually started this out to do was just to try to get people on the same page we're on before they start their journey building software.

• 03:01 Kel

  and I mean when, when we started to, we were looking at more application type things of like how to pick a framework I think was actually an early, early episode idea. I don't know if we actually did that one. Um, but things more slightly more technical, but also kind of the business reasons for doing technical things was kind of our original thing. But as we kept going, we were definitely finding that the topics that were like resonating or the more useful to talk about were really basic things like communication and using more words and talking more to communicate better, which that was a really poor way of communicating that, which I feel is a little bit ironic.

• 03:39 Joshua

  Well, I'll follow that up with some more words. I think one of the things that was a turning point for me was by talking to more people, using more words, sharing these things. That's when I started to realize actually there's a huge gap. There certainly is a gap between people who know how to develop software and people who don't. But even within the software development community and humanity in general, there's this huge gap between people who understand some of these basic concepts and people who don't. And I think we don't talk about these things enough and they are important to software development, but I think this show could probably apply to damn near any other career as well. To be honest, we tried to focus it on software development because that's what we do. That's what we know best. But at the same time, I think a lot of the lessons that we've come up with and the things we've learned and what we hope we've shared with you over the past year or so would work for accountants or legal secretaries or just about anybody

• 04:33 Kel

  Works for talking among people on Twitter.

• 04:37 Joshua

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 04:40 Kel

  I mean an old observation of mine is that most people have very different definitions of things and like a lot of Twitter arguments you'll notice are basically just fights over vocabulary and can be boiled down to people with two different definitions for a word. So yeah.

• 04:54 Joshua

  Absolutely. And we have focused a lot on communication throughout almost every episode. At some stage we talk about communication, whether it is helping people understand a shared or common language or sharing your context in a particular industry or just how to communicate things with other people. It comes up and just about everything we talk about because it is so important. A lot of what we're doing is talking to people as software developers, you would think that we would go hide in a room and I remember as a kid watching things like hackers, they'd go into the room and the lights would come up and screens would be flying across and you know, just thinking, Oh well that's what we're going to do. No, that's not at all what we do. I probably spend at least 80% of my day talking to other people.

• 05:40 Kel

  In fairness, uh, the, the intro to matrix where he's got the headphones on and the, you know, that kinda like techno-y beat while hacking away to thing. I still do that occasionally, but yeah, my career is much more talking to people, communicating ideas and concepts and trying to explain everything from timelines to expectations to you know, anything to just to build products and software and to do neat things.

• 06:02 Joshua

  Yeah, absolutely. Or just sharing ideas with coworkers so you can come up with the best solution you're going to be communicating with other people. You're going to have to communicate with other people. So it is extremely important.

• 06:15 Kel

  As, as a bonus. It's also fun entertaining to talk to people than to sit in the basement all day and hack at the screen.

• 06:24 Joshua

  Absolutely. And we have spoken about some of that as well. Self confidence and motivation are very important things and you don't get those sitting at home hiding with the screens flowing across. You get those by communicating with other people, by working with other people, by building where the great things with other people.

• 06:42 Kel

  Definitely the best way to create neat things is to have other people to kind of prod you along an example of the podcast. But um, but yeah, being able to, having somebody else with a similar vision and similar ideas and similar goals is really a motivating factor to build really great things. It's how you end up on the moon...

• 06:59 Joshua

  And also helps with other things. We talk a lot about feedback and I think feedback and safety are two topics that we've talked about a lot because they come hand in hand. A lot of safety is using feedback to your benefit.

• 07:17 Kel

  Yes, definitely. And probably my favorite topics right there. It's a very different mindset than the normal, you know, get this done or you're fired point of view that you, you're used to hearing about businesses and the idea of being safe and in business environment where it's safe to fail, safe to mess up, safe to do all of those kinds of things. Is it a bit of a newish concept? Probably not. I'm sure many people have come up with this repeatedly throughout time trying to explain to business owners that, no, no, it's better if everyone's safe and happy. Um, but I, I see it a lot more in lately and I see people actually using this in companies and it's successful. It works. People get motivated, they're happier, they like being safe, they love, and once they're in that position of safety, once they can mess up and get feedback, when they messed up quickly, then they iterate faster, they get more confident, they build things quicker. That's one of the reasons why I love software and not hardware is because failure is usually instantaneous. Your compiler squawks at you, yells at you, it does it without anything exploding or catching on fire. And then I can correct it and go on quickly, fast safe feedback. It's great.

• 08:23 Joshua

  And that's why I like messing with hardware. Sometimes it does light on fire. It's fun.

• 08:28 Kel

  There are, yeah, there are some entertainment values.

• 08:31 Joshua

  And you mentioned that is not a new concept actually. That's absolutely right. I mean, it's just not that long ago apprenticeships were very, very common and that was a way to communicate with other people to get feedback very quickly, to be put in a position where you can screw things up and it's okay because they built that into the apprenticeship and we've lost a lot of those things. They are starting to come back a little bit, particularly in the industries that they were historically popular in plumbing and things like that. But we don't really have that or a parallel for that in the software development world. So we kind of have to build that into the way we work with our colleagues. So all of these concepts I think because they are so tightly tied together and they are so important to building up a person, I think that's why they keep coming up over and over again because they all, you find that you can't talk about one without the others.

• 09:25 Kel

  Absolutely. My, my goal for this year, talking about like new year's goals, is to actually get a proper graph of my blogs and you know, map to these concepts. So I have a little graph of, you know, you click on fear and you can see the things related to that will be great.

• 09:38 Joshua

  I have that list to them up right now and I'm trying to do that as we go through the episode. These things, it's impossible. They're all connected to each other. We were just talking about failure. One of our episodes in fact, we've had a couple episodes and I've done a couple talks about failure and how it is okay to fail. Uh, particularly we want an environment where it is okay to fail and you know that it's okay to fail, but, just in general life you're going to fail. And we've talked about this so much because it keeps coming up and it has kept coming up in my career. I know for a fact I've bombed on a lot of things and when I did, particularly early on, I was terrified to tell anybody. And that shouldn't be the way it is. I don't want other people to be terrified to tell me that they screwed something up. So I think it's another good thing to talk about. And it ties into all these other topics. So, well.

• 10:24 Kel

  I mean from my point of view, it's all a little bit of the opposite. I wasn't terrified to tell people that I messed up and because of that, my career got better. I told people what I messed up. I took responsibility for it. Like this was a really common thing in my early career of, Oh well I screwed that up. Oh, I fixed it. Great. And moving forward and like being able to do that kind of put me into a different category of employee. And because of that I kept like, you know, I did really well. But looking back I can recognize that that was very much from a position of safety. If I got fired, I was going to get another job. It wasn't that big of a deal. I was still young. I was technical. Like there were plenty of other opportunities for me. Someone would give me a couch if nothing else. I didn't have a family. Like I was coming from a position of safety. So it was built in for me. But all of my, you know, my coworkers who weren't doing this, I can now look back and go, Oh yeah, they had kids and lives and a million reasons not to accept fault for failure.

• 11:25 Joshua

  Absolutely you do have to see it from both sides. There are people who are in positions, I've got kids. I can only take so many risks, and even at that, I think sometimes we do have to take some risks and that is a good thing when you do have that safety, it is good to take risks, but it is also good to take responsibility. As you said, you were willing to fess up basically to your failures but also to then have a plan for how going to deal with it. And that I think is the key thing there because in general, most places, even if you do fail, when you admit it, as long as you've got a plan for it and you can deal with it appropriately and you learn from it and everything else, generally it's okay. I haven't run into too many employers who were just going to fire you offhand for that one failure.

• 12:12 Kel

  Those are generally really awful employers, just saying. Or alternatively it's a scenario where that was part of the job was disaster recovery of if failure is a possibility, you need to be prepared for it. And that's kind of like expectation setting and probably poor management practices and you know, your boss shouldn't, you should be aware of these things. If there's a chance of you getting fired for messing up, you should be really, really aware of that problem. Um, but yeah, definitely risk, safety and balancing the two, but I definitely do, I recommend like having that preparation for failure, knowing when it's going to happen, you know, if this fails, what will I do? And just being ready for that helps tremendously on a lot of things.

• 12:55 Joshua

  Absolutely. I think that kind of leads into then the other side of this, obviously a lot of this is about how we work with other people, how we avoid problems with other people. But one of the biggest failures that I see in a lot of developers is simply not standing out. And I know this is something that I really struggled with early on. While I was generally happy to admit failures and come up with plans for things and I did all right. Actually, one of the biggest failures in my career was that I didn't promote myself early enough. I didn't stand out in any way whatsoever for a long time other than I was really good at my job. So when I got into the job, everybody was happy, but then moving to the next one was difficult. And I think one of the things that I've really found that as we've been talking about it over the past year, people have really resonated with is things like CV advice.

• 13:47 Joshua

  Resumes are really difficult if you don't know how to build your resume and make it stand out. And I see this, I have been going through resumes lately, trying to find some developers to hire. They're all horrible, horrible. There's so much information in a lot of them, some of them don't have any information. Some have way too much information. There's very few actually arrive on my desk and I think, Oh this is really well organized. This has all the information I want and I can see why this person stands out and I can kind of get a feeling for who this person is. Never happens. When it does, I get really, really excited.

• 14:22 Kel

  And it's a difficult thing to do cause you're, you're looking at it like I'm a blank slate coming from the opposite direction of riot, like what does this person want? I have no idea. And it's kind of counterintuitive that the answer is they want you to be you. Yeah. Like they want to see you. The correct answer is what do you like, what do you want to show off? What do you like emphasize that side of things and that that really is the correct answer for these types of things. Oddly, this also applies to dating. Uh, you know, that would be a different podcast, but it is actually this same thing. It's people want to know about you and that's why you always hear, be yourself as advice. And it's the exact same advice.

• 15:03 Joshua

  It is with any communication. Being yourself is one of the most important things you can do for yourself and for other people because that's how you build a relationship. You don't build relationship by being somebody else because then they've built a relationship with somebody else. Unless you really want to be that person for the rest of your life and that sounds like a problem in itself, right there.

• 15:21 Kel

  Can be stressful.

• 15:23 Joshua

  Absolutely be stressful. You're much better off being yourself, surrounding yourself with people, employers, coworkers who all respect that and are happy with that and appreciate that because that sounds like a much better way of life to me,

• 15:37 Kel

  That actually moves directly into my Like the other new year's goal for this year is to talk about those types of things of why do people not know how to be themselves. And the answer is generally fear, which you know, back to all this, the same topic we use on our podcasts, but you'll notice that there's a lot of acceptable behaviors and just about anything like what you can wear as clothing or what you can do, like what are appropriate colors for your outfits, types of things. And there's a lot of acceptable stuff that just kinda, you know, baked into, you know, whatever societal or group that you're part of, but that limits your other options and figuring out what you want, like who you are specifically, it's really important to just kind of ignore all that first like start from, okay, what do I like? And then if you know there's a reasons why you shouldn't be wearing that to your business meeting, then okay fine. Then you know, tailor. But know who you are first. Like start from there rather than the opposite direction.

• 16:29 Joshua

  Absolutely. We actually had an episode, I think it was even called unicorns in business suits or something like that. And the example you used in that was if you really like unicorns and you want a big pink flaming unicorn on your resume, put one on there. And I'll tell you it's scary. It is absolutely scary to do something like that and to really stand out, and I can absolutely guarantee you somebody's going to take a look at that and they can say, why the hell does it first and have a unicorn on the resume and they're going to put it in the bin. I can almost guarantee you that somebody else is going to pick up that resume, say, Whoa, this person put a unicorn on this resume! Wow! We've got to talk to them. That's great because you never know what they're looking for and if you really do like unicorns, then that's the sort of personality you want to stand out a little bit and you like these things, then somebody is going to appreciate that. I can tell you right now, if somebody sent me a CV with a unicorn on it, I would certainly look at it twice because, most CVS I get look exactly the same. If I find one with a unicorn, I'd be really excited. Wow, that's different. That's kinda neat.

• 17:33 Kel

  And you know we talk about like rock star employees occasionally, like that's a, that's a thing. And there's generally like a, another piece of that, like a rock star employee is like someone who gets everything done and it's all done without you having to like spend all your time managing this person. But it also is implying that they're extremely eccentric. They're a rock star. And that is a very true statement that the people who perform really well tend to be kind of quirky and that's a good thing. It's great. It adds more like just personality and you know, uniqueness to your team and to your company and to your products.

• 18:10 Joshua

  There's a direct connection there between eccentricity and thinking for yourself. If you're thinking for yourself and you're capable of being autonomous and dealing with these things and doing what every employer wants you to do and just getting on with stuff and getting stuff done. Getting Apps Done. There we go. We've got a one. Yeah. Okay.

• 18:31 Kel

  Getting Apps Done! Our very first reference in the new year.

• 18:35 Joshua

  there we go. Um, but you are going to also think for yourself in other ways and possibly in ways that they don't necessarily like, but that's just the nature of the beast. If you're not doing that, then you're just that plain old black and white resume with no unicorns and nothing to make me excited about. And..

• 18:56 Kel

  And how about how they are? Oh, I don't know. Showed leadership ability and task management and [inaudible].

• 19:05 Joshua

  Yeah, I'll tell you a lot of resumes. I struggled to get past the summary because they are all exactly the same. I show initiative and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'd much rather you say, you know what? I really don't like this and I love this and this is cool. And I like ice cream. And at least it's different. I would pay attention to it.

• 19:29 Kel

  Yeah. The stage after that unfortunately is the one where you have to start writing to your audience and that is a bit more of a skill than you know, just being yourself as a thing. It's a thing you need to learn how to do and then next you have to learn to write to your audience on top of that. So there is more to it than just the unicorn unfortunately. But yeah

• 19:48 Joshua

  We did talk about these topics in unpacked a couple episodes now we've talked about building out resumes and making them stand out and organizing the data well and making sure that you're building a user experience for them and it's all, it comes back to the same things you are communicating with other people. You are helping share your context with them and it all, it all ties together.

• 20:11 Kel

  And that's part of why I like we started this podcast, to start talking about these things because some of these are things we did really well when we started. Right? Like the being the rock star and you know, telling our boss, no, it was like a basic thing. We were kids, we had no money, we didn't have that much to fear. Um, but now, you know, being on the other side of the desk and seeing the resumes and it's like, Oh wow, I did that really poorly when I started, we can do better. I know exactly what I would have been looking forward to hire myself now and things like that. So that's, you know, a lot of what we like to talk about on the podcast to help people I guess not necessarily make, you know, avoid the mistakes we made, but just do better in general.

• 20:48 Joshua

  Isn't that the goal of humanity in general is we're meant to be helping each other, you know, do better than the last group did. Whether it works out that way or not, I don't.

• 20:59 Kel

  That is what we are trying to do.

• 21:01 Joshua

  We're trying,

• 21:02 Kel

  We are trying and I figure that is a good start.

• 21:06 Joshua

  Absolutely. Because otherwise you're not starting at all. So

• 21:10 Kel

  The most important step is the next one. Something like that. So I mean that covers a lot of what we did, you know, for this year as a podcast. And when we started, like we were originally aiming at business folks and what we realized pretty quickly on was that the people who were, I guess yearning to hear this, the most, uh, was new developers, folks new to the industry where, you know, have no clue what it's actually like to be a software developer. And from our point of view, it's like, Oh yeah, that's just day to day stuff and you know, from coming from other industries or other careers or just, you know, starting off new, they have no idea what any of these things mean. Like what is a sprint. Um, so yeah, though we kind of moved into that from this kind of naturally progression of starting about, you know, communications and the things we did and then starting about sending out resumes and then, Oh yeah. Like, well, this is how you get started and do you really need to go to college. No, no you don't.

• 22:06 Joshua

  No, absolutely. That's why it's been mostly nontechnical because I've never really felt the need to talk about the technical side of things. I think people who are into tech are going to get the technical side. I think they're going to miss a lot of these other parts and certainly I did early on I knew the tech inside and out, and these are all lessons that have been hard earned that I hope aren't as hard for you to earn. The tech side is fun. I love figuring out new tech and you know when the compiler is screaming at me and I've got 432 errors, I'm thrilled. I don't get wound up about it. I'm excited. Yeah, we're going to figure this out. That's no problem at all. We'll get this one sorted. But you know, when I'm struggling with motivation or if I'm worried about telling a client that something's gone really, really wrong, those are the parts that I still to this day struggle with. And I think talking about those things is much, much more important. And there aren't enough people talking about those things.

• 23:04 Kel

  Absolutely. There are plenty of people arguing about which framework is better and while we have opinions, we also don't care that much.

• 23:13 Joshua

  No, because they all work.

• 23:16 Kel

  They all sorta work. They all have problems. None of them are perfect. I'm still kind of cranky that I haven't found a UI framework that I actually enjoy for like side projects. Like there's no perfect solutions. I'm about ready to go back to VB6 at this point.

• 23:30 Joshua

  Don't do it. You'll remember how bad it was.

• 23:33 Kel

  Yeah. It's like I remember it being really easy to create buttons and text boxes and I'm pretty sure that's just Rose fogginess. So yeah, I don't know. The Rose tinted glasses quite the right.

• 23:45 Joshua

  Rose tinted like your phone is.

• 23:47 Kel

  Yeah, I've got a new gold gold. This is totally not gold. It's very. Yeah, it's odd. I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest. It's a little too fancy for me. Like I'm not a fancy person. So having a like goldish rose-ish phone is a little strange. I'm not sure. I got a sticker and put something ridiculous on the back. Either way, it'll be fun. I'm just excited that I'm, I found a little hook thing to add a bracelet to it without having to get a case. I have simple needs.

• 24:21 Joshua

  All right, so simple needs. Actually we do have some simple needs now.

• 24:27 Kel

  Oh that's right.

• 24:28 Joshua

  I think this is a pretty good recap here and I think what would be good to discuss next is what we want to do for the next year, because we're planning to keep doing this. So we need some ideas to keep ourselves entertained, but also to keep you entertained and informed. That's kind of the purpose here and we want to keep carrying on with some of these things. And one of these things that really kind of hit me was that new developers don't actually know what it's like to be a developer. And I think one of the things that I would like to do over the next year is I want to have a lot more interviews.

• 25:04 Kel

  Yes, definitely.

• 25:05 Joshua

  With developers, with designers, with project managers, with manager managers, with anybody who's related to software development, just to discuss what they do. And this has been requested before, and I promised we would do it and we haven't done it yet. So I am saying publicly out loud that we're going to get more people on for interviews just to discuss what is it like being a software developer or what is it like being a designer and working with software developers so that people have some idea, what are you getting into, what is it you're doing to yourself here if you decide to do this as a career

• 25:39 Kel

  In fairness to you, you did just have a kid and holidays and scheduling is a bit of a challenge and we didn't really want to be like, so we have a one hour time slot that you can, you know, you can go in if you're available then you can record, and if you're not too bad. So yeah, interviews are a bit of a challenge there for awhile, but yeah, that's that. Those were some of our like most entertaining episodes if nothing else, like just talk to people and it didn't, it doesn't, we're not like looking for any particular types of folks. Like we're really just interested in a variety of voices in software, starting, having done it forever, wanting to design, you know, even adjacent things, you know, are you a project manager? That sort of thing. Like things that are relevant to getting an application done.

• 26:24 Joshua

  That's two. All right, so that is one of our simple needs. If you happen to know anybody that you think would be really great on the show or that you would love to hear from that you just maybe as a designer you've seen on Twitter that does really amazing things and you know nothing about how they do that or why they do that or how that ties into really awesome designs for Twitter or Uber or whoever. Let us know. We will get in touch with them. We'll try to get them on the show. We also have our own list of people that we would like to talk to as well as some that I think would be very interesting to talk to. So we're going to start queuing those up and getting that ready. Uh, but absolutely any feedback you've got for who you'd like to hear, let us know.

• 27:04 Kel

  Or also yourself, if you're a listener and you think you're fun to talk to and have a semi-decent microphone is like our only real requirement.

• 27:13 Joshua

  That is a struggle when we do have gas. Yeah, we're a little bit, uh mm. I won't say we're perfectionists...

• 27:22 Kel

  You really like audio.

• 27:23 Joshua

  We like good audio. And it's very hard to tell the guest, sorry, your microphone sounds horrible. It sounds like you're in a taxi with the microphone out the window and you're speaking to the other way.

• 27:38 Kel

  But anyway, yeah, it is. It's a good thing too. And you know, we started this as our own kind of branding too. We do not mind you joining us for a similar type of experience that you can say at one point you were on a podcast. Um, and talk about that experience, but especially if you're coming with like experience. Like a lot of people who work in these roles don't talk to a lot of people a lot and don't, you know, get to talk about what their process was like. You know, it's usually like just a few voices in every industry that are loud that everybody hears from. So if you have a new thing tell us.

• 28:07 Joshua

  And we're not talking about people who have 20 years of experience. I'd be thrilled if you come back to us and say, I've been doing this for a year because a lot of new developers are wanting to know what's that first year? Like where am I going to be in a year?

• 28:21 Kel

  Honestly, I feel like we've got the 20 year one locked down.

• 28:24 Joshua

  I think we've got the gray hairs here and we'll take care of that one less and less gray hair. So yes, if you've got a year, if you got six months, if you've got two years, we would love to hear from you because I think that's what people are really wanting to know particularly early on is what's next for me on this path? What can I expect? What should I be trying to do in that time frame? So that's really great and valuable experience and knowledge for them. Other than interviewing other people, I think one of the key things that we have found is that this whole loop of conversation about feedback and communication and safety and motivation and confidence and standing out are going to be recurring themes throughout when we're talking to other people as well as just when the two of us yammering on about whatever we yammer on about. I suspect that's probably going to be still the strong theme behind our message here.

• 29:21 Kel

  Definitely the strong theme of every message that I write lately, every conversation I have and every, yeah. Fear, safety.

• 29:32 Joshua

  Fear of safety.

• 29:36 Joshua

  I don't think that's what I was hoping to say there. Um, but yeah.

• 29:39 Joshua

  All right. Uh, I suspect that probably wraps us up for now. But as I said, please do let us know if there's anybody you can think of that would be really great on the show because we want to start getting those booked in now because obviously, Kel is on one side of the planet, I'm on another side of the planet and everybody else is somewhere else, so we have to try to arrange these things and it does take some time.

• 30:00 Kel

  Scheduling can be complicated and it can take a while before the things get published and so on and so forth. But yeah, we're hoping to do this a little bit more, do more interviews regularly at simple ones. It'll be great.

• 30:11 Joshua

  Absolutely, and if we have already spoken to you and promise to do an interview with you and we haven't yet, we'll be calling soon.

• 30:21 Joshua

  All right. I'll put some transcripts up at https://gettingappsdone.com. Please be sure to check out my website at joshuagraham.info and Kel website at piffner.com. As we said, we would love any recommendations you've got. You can find us on Twitter at @gettingappsdone. You can also check out our Slack channel gettingappsdone.com/slack and let us know there as well as just participate in our community. We've got a lot of great developers in there, some who are brand new, some who haven't even started yet, some who have been developing for a long time. So it's a good mix in there. We are back from our holiday hiatus so we will be posting every Thursday. That's once a week, once a week. I think we can manage that and we have for about, it's been almost 18 months now. We've got over 80 episodes. I didn't think that was ever going to happen. All right. Uh, so we will see you next week.

• 31:18 Kel

  Cheers.